In Play is now "In the Battlefield."

[Regret]

:seal:


This discovery is in conjunction with the spoiling of 3 M10 cards. Head over to MTGSalvation if you want to check them out.

[Mixed Berry Hotcakes.]

In the battle, in the battle, in the battlefield..
First aura then exile not to mention banding..
I've done all the dumb things.

Also, what more players need, yet another reason to frantic search (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ul/32.jpg) for lotus (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lotus). :V

[Shadow]

golden lotus made me lol.

[Naga]

I was okay with changing play to cast, but this is just retarded.

[Shadow]

I don't like change for the sake of change. There should be change for a reason, and the only good reason they have is to make it "cooler".

[Dullahan]

Yet another reason to boycott 11th edition.

[Fonzy]

Mana burn removed in 3...2...

[Fonzy]

2 more things: from a flavor/fantasy perspective (since this is apparently what this change is supposed to reflect), how in the fuck does a land "enter" a battlefield, exactly?

Also:
http://mtgsalvation.com/images/cards/27a_capriciousEfreet_dqrll.jpg

lol how the fuck are you supposed to play that card's ability?
EDIT- to clarify before Jenius makes any derpa-derpa comments, what I'm talking about is choosing 1 thing randomly from a group of 3.

There are smoking some good goddamn crack these days.

[Cee Pee]

Also:
http://mtgsalvation.com/images/cards/27a_capriciousEfreet_dqrll.jpg

lol how the fuck are you supposed to play that card's ability?
EDIT- to clarify before Jenius makes any derpa-derpa comments, what I'm talking about is choosing 1 thing randomly from a group of 3.
You give them numbers, then roll dice? I guess a six-sided die would work.

[Cara]

lol how the fuck are you supposed to play that card's ability?

You aren't. Its a shitty red rare creature that has a drawback but no mana cost deduction.

[Fonzy]

You give them numbers, then roll dice? I guess a six-sided die would work.

I guess that works. Personally I don't often keep anything other than a 20 sided around while playing Magic, but I suppose with a bunch of nerds around there's probably a much greater chance of varying-sided dice.

[Regret]

I guess that works. Personally I don't often keep anything other than a 20 sided around while playing Magic, but I suppose with a bunch of nerds around there's probably a much greater chance of varying-sided dice.
with a d-20 you could separate it into 1-6, 7-12 and 13-18 and just re roll the die if you got a 19 or 20. Or you could just take 3 cards from outside the game, have them correspond to a different permanent, and shuffle them facedown. The randomness doesn't have to be determined by some kind of randomizing device. Most players, when they have to discard cards at random, put their hand face down and their opponent chooses.

[Fonzy]

with a d-20 you could separate it into 1-6, 7-12 and 13-18 and just re roll the die if you got a 19 or 20. Or you could just take 3 cards from outside the game, have them correspond to a different permanent, and shuffle them facedown. The randomness doesn't have to be determined by some kind of randomizing device. Most players, when they have to discard cards at random, put their hand face down and their opponent chooses.
The thing with random discard works fine but when you have 2 different decks with different sleeves it's not likely to work as well.

But whatever, it just seems like shitty design that they didn't take into account the actual mechanics of the ability.

[Jenius]

2 more things: from a flavor/fantasy perspective (since this is apparently what this change is supposed to reflect), how in the fuck does a land "enter" a battlefield, exactly?

Also:
http://mtgsalvation.com/images/cards/27a_capriciousEfreet_dqrll.jpg

lol how the fuck are you supposed to play that card's ability?
EDIT- to clarify before Jenius makes any derpa-derpa comments, what I'm talking about is choosing 1 thing randomly from a group of 3.

There are smoking some good goddamn crack these days.
At first I was going to say you flip the cards upside shuffle them a bit and have a player pull one but that doesn't work if sleeves are different. A d6 does seem to be the only reasonable thing but that's kinda a lame solution.

Edit: I really should read threads before posting.

[Van]

I can't play this game anymore.

I mean, I know it sounds petty, but "Put into the battlefield" is really fucking stupid, and it takes 3 times as long to say and type "the battlefield" than "play."

If this is exclusive to 2010, I can find that acceptable. But I'm not putting any money into shit that says battlefield.

[Dullahan]

Only change I like is play to cast.

Removal of mana burn means 3 of my decks are worthless.

[Shadow]

Removal of mana burn makes me really angry because honestly I don't see a need to get rid of it. What is so difficult about it?

[Fonzy]

Only change I like is play to cast.

Removal of mana burn means 3 of my decks are worthless.

Removal of mana burn means I stop playing for good. Fuck that.

[Dullahan]

Removal of mana burn means I stop playing for good. Fuck that.

:teach:

[Regret]

No mana burn you say?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/cs/78.jpg (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/cs/78.jpg)

[Jenius]

Removal of mana burn takes away several bluff opportunities. Sometimes I've let triggered abilities add mana during my combat phase just to bluff I had something, because the alternative of me having nothing is pinging myself for a bit. Now it's always going to be the right play to add as there's no downside to simply not playing the card (or even simply not having the card).

[Naga]

No mana burn you say?
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/cs/78.jpg (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/cs/78.jpg)

This card feels like a darksteel reactor now.

Wait 20 turns, banefire for 20.

[Jenius]

Mana burn or no that card feels like it's probably realistically too slow to be useful. Turn 2 is a pretty important turn for red (at least it was when I played) and the promise of more mana later might not be worth it.

Probably a decent house in casual though.

[Shadow]

You know elvish spirit guide? They made a red version of that.

[Naga]

Mana burn or no that card feels like it's probably realistically too slow to be useful. Turn 2 is a pretty important turn for red (at least it was when I played) and the promise of more mana later might not be worth it.

Probably a decent house in casual though.

Of course, its only in your pool in your upkeep.

It won't break any formats, but it turns from an unplayable card to an okay one.

[121p]

wait, they're actually removing mana burn?

[Regret]

wait, they're actually removing mana burn?
First, the obligatory "Who the fuck are you?"

I believe it was previously rumored in conjunction with the battlefield change and now that that's been confirmed mana burn is probably out.

[121p]

weird

[Mixed Berry Hotcakes.]

This card feels like a darksteel reactor now.

Wait 20 turns, banefire for 20.

Play it with a deck that's stuffed blue instants. Play a nearly free Intuition one turn and a nearly free Gift's the next.

[Regret]

Ok, they fucked it up a bit more than I anticipated...

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a

[mrs_bun]

The blocking thing is retarded, especially with the new death touch wording. "You have to assign enough damage to kill a creature before assigning damage to anyone else!" "To make it less complicated." "Oh, hay, also, but not with deathtouch, you can assign that however you want. Also combat damage doesn't use the stack, either, for some reason. We're trying to completely remove every aspect of the game that made it mensa approved. My name is Mark Gottlieb, and I look like an actual toad." :rolleyes:

[jimbyob]

I can describe my feeling in one sentence.

"FUCK YOU WIZARDS"

[mrs_bun]

That implies caring. Eh. I can prolly make a few grand off my cards, so that's neato.

[jimbyob]

Yeah, I'm probably selling my cards.

[Jenius]

At first I was like "Why are people whining it's just flavor changes" and then the combat mechanic changes made me want to cry. I mean I don't play magic much anymore, but I did occasionally boot up modo.

[jok3r]

Jok3R says:
oh, atma said you think magic is dying?
Mr. Indigo - Μιστερ Ινδιγο - Мистер Индиго - ミスタ　インヂゴー says:
Not really
But i think the latest rule change is poor
Benefits noone
Jok3R says:
what change?
Mr. Indigo - Μιστερ Ινδιγο - Мистер Индиго - ミスタ　インヂゴー says:
Combat damage no longer uses the stack
As soon as it is assigned, it is dealt
Jok3R says:
omgwtfgay
Mr. Indigo - Μιστερ Ινδιγο - Мистер Индиго - ミスタ　インヂゴー says:
Tell me about it
There's a bunch of changes
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/42a
But that's the main bad one
Jok3R says:
battlefield?
i fucking hate this "omg new players need help too" shit
i had to learn from nothing and i'm good at the game now
nut up, pussies
Mr. Indigo - Μιστερ Ινδιγο - Мистер Индиго - ミスタ　インヂゴー says:
Yeah
Jok3R says:
oh my fucking god
seriously no floating mana between steps?!
shit shit shit
that's gay as hell
that's a complete functional change of the game
Mr. Indigo - Μιστερ Ινδιγο - Мистер Индиго - ミスタ　インヂゴー says:
Yeah, but it's less significant than the combat step thing
It means that mistbind clique is one card more powerful
Jok3R says:
clique could be retarded now
like seriously a fucking house in ext.
so many creatures just got worse
mogg fanatic, anything that gives something else +0/+1, nantuko husk, etc
Mr. Indigo - Μιστερ Ινδιγο - Мистер Индиго - ミスタ　インヂゴー says:
The +0/+1 thing still works
And Husk
You just have to do it before damage
Jok3R says:
so if i want to attack with two or thee creatures, put damage on, and sac to a husk to save it, etc, i can't
that's a total change
husk can still work, but not nearly the same
the new double block thing is gay, too
Mr. Indigo - Μιστερ Ινδιγο - Мистер Индиго - ミスタ　インヂゴー says:
Yeah, it is
Nekrataal is pretty bad now
Jok3R says:
making death touch a static ability was needed, though
Mr. Indigo - Μιστερ Ινδιγο - Мистер Индиго - ミスタ　インヂゴー says:
Makes it worse
Lifelink is better in that it stops you dying
But worse in that it doesn't stack
Jok3R says:
omg, but it's not cumulative
yeah
is braid of fire less awful yet?
wait, you can't wait for draw step
Mr. Indigo - Μιστερ Ινδιγο - Мистер Индиго - ミスタ　インヂゴー says:
Yep
You can't draw your card and try it


Indigo and I discussed the shit.

[Jenius]

I think mana burn is the thing that annoyed me the most. I can think of a few instances where I floated mana off of optional effects completely as a mindgame/bluff (I had nothing) and it played out in my favor due to it. Now you'll always take mana off of optional effects because you don't burn if you don't need it, furthermore it sticks around for a shorter amount of time so blech.

But really, combat sucks the most. The first time I heard of damage on the stack I was like "wow, this game is incredibly deep and makes me want to learn more" (well not that exactly, but a similar vein). I also remember the first few times I did something really clever or unique with the stack, and it felt good. I mean I guess I can see them justifying it by saying "hey, this is how it was before 6th", but I think it was a step forward then and a step back now.

Also : http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/

[Jenius]

Also your friend fails at japanese, that says "Misuta Injigo" the first being a decent translation of mister but the second notably missing the fact that a "chi" with diacritical marks becomes a "ji" as opposed to a "di". To actually get di you have to combine de with i :V.

[Regret]

Also : http://www.goodgamery.com/pmo/

Was going to post that. I knew I forgot something.

[jok3r]

Also your friend fails at japanese, that says "Misuta Injigo" the first being a decent translation of mister but the second notably missing the fact that a "chi" with diacritical marks becomes a "ji" as opposed to a "di". To actually get di you have to combine de with i :V.

i doubt indigo cares. i've corrected the russian for him, too, but he left it as it was then. and to use the phrase "fails at x" is simply dumb and over-exaggerating the point.

[Mixed Berry Hotcakes.]

You know that guy who says FUUUUUU on all of the 4chan rage threads? Yeah, this is where he belongs.

My name is Mark Gottlieb, and I look like an actual toad.

My name is Aaron Forsythe, and I look like an actual badger. Let's go put on a stage production of Wind in the Willows, and then afterwards kill Magic.

[mrs_bun]

Super stupid. Really.

Wotc has a brilliant history of mismanagement. Look at dnd, magic, star wars, d20 modern, modo, dnd online... just wow. I don't really play anything cept magic, and most of them I never even played, but wotc is just retarded all the time about everything.

[Shadow]

I feel bad for all the people who have so much invested in magic and now they are just literally fucking it to shit.

[Jenius]

The combat changes kinda make it a different game, I mean I didn't play magic much anymore to be honest, but I'm going to miss damage on stack shenanigans and mana burn.

[Tony3]

Removing mana burn is a 100% good idea, as it was silly and counterintuitive.

Changing mana depletion to getting removed between steps instead of phases is ultimately just dumbing down the game, which is kind of bad, but not a huge deal. I never used it to bluff anyway (I had better ways of bluffing).

Combat... well, yes, honestly, I can see why people feel strongly about this. It does dumb down the game a little bit, but it makes it significantly more logical (why combat damage functioned as an activated ability always made no sense to me, actually). I do have concerns about making the game less strategic, but refocusing the game away from combat "tricks" towards actual game strategy isn't necessarily a bad idea, it's just different.

this.

i do think combat tricks were a big part of the strategy of the game though, and should have sacrificed a bit of flavor for that.

[Fonzy]

I would love to see the market research that indicated all these changes were necessary or even desired.

But, to sum up, fuck this game.

[Jenius]

Removing mana burn is a 100% good idea, as it was silly and counterintuitive.

Changing mana depletion to getting removed between steps instead of phases is ultimately just dumbing down the game, which is kind of bad, but not a huge deal. I never used it to bluff anyway (I had better ways of bluffing).

The problem is both of these changes remove a decent amount of possible bluffs from the game.

Say I attack with Radha, Heir to Keld and float 2 during my declare attackers step. Under the old rules this meant I was likely to have something, because if I didn't I'd burn for 2. I loved doing this even when I had nothing, because it was a great way to get through for some damage in a deck that benefited from trading life.

Now two things have changed:
1: it's always the right play to add her mana because there's no loss if you have nothing. It basically loses it's value as a bluff and becomes nothing more or less than swinging with a vanilla creature in colors known for combat tricks (green for example).
2: The mana doesn't carry over to the declare blockers step, meaning if I'm buffing any of my creatures with it or burning something, I have to do it here and now. That actually destroys a R/G deck I built around her and combat tricks because I have to play tricks before blockers are declared.

"But that's just a corner case" I hear you cry, well I can name a lot of other cards I've floated mana or intentionally burned myself with, like pulse of the fields/forge and such.

Basically it was not a complicated rule and it's stupid to get rid of it.

The combat changes make combat significantly more shallow and realistically don't make it that much easier to understand. It also nerfs several mechanics like bounce.

It feels like they're trying to turn magic into a creature smash game, though I'd say that was kind of inherent with how they've been consistantly nerfing destruction and counterspells and with the advent of cards that basically need to be dealt with in combat or it's gameover (planeswalkers).

[Fonzy]

The only major functional change is to combat. I could see not liking the battlefield change (I hated it initially, but I was convinced that it was an alright change when they mentioned the "Graveyard" and "Library" as having flavored names), or any of the other flavorful changes, but they're minor and ultimately have no impact on your gameplay.

Are you really saying "fuck this game" just because of the two changes to combat?

No I'm saying fuck this game because of a the complete list of unnecessary and largely unwanted changes to a game who's rules have been static for over a decade (6E was probably last time anything this drastic was changed). EDIT- Cosmetic changes to card wording, now matter how stupid and pointless they may be, notwithstanding.

To be quite honest, I don't feel like memorizing new rules and figuring out how that changes card interactions and dismantles my existing strategies and then building new ones. I already learned how to play the game once and I don't have the desire to do it again. I'm thinking ahead here, too, to having to re-teach the rules to my casual group that I've spent the last 10 years trying to get them to understand in the first place. It's just not worth the effort. I'd rather just wash my hands of the whole mess.

[Jenius]

Also for more stupid combat changes, say I attack with a 3/3 and I get blocked by a 2/3and a 2/3, I put 2 damage on one and 1 damage on the other, after combat I pyroclasm oh wait I couldn't actually divide my damage like that well fuck me.

[Fonzy]

I think it makes it easier to understand. Not that combat was really all that difficult to understand to begin with, but I digress.

[Jenius]

It does, but I think it importantly separates it into two areas: offensive and defensive, not both. Not that bounce as a mechanic was tearing up very many competitive fields, granted, but being able to protect your creature and kill other dudes was a little silly.


I disagree, my creature is fighting with an enemy creature. It's a tooth and claw fight and both end up mortally wounding each other, right before my creature dies I cast a spell to trasport it from this mortal coil to a safer place where it can heal before I resummon it later.

[Fonzy]

Also, Tarmogoyf just got like 50 times better than it already was, too.

[Regret]

Also, Tarmogoyf just got like 50 times better than it already was, too.
how so?

[Fonzy]

how so?

Unless I'm missing something, no more, "Block your Goyf with <chump>, and with combat damage on the stack, deal lethal to him". I guess it really only hurts red, which was getting owned my Goyf anyhow.

[Shadow]

It's because they're trying to make the game more creature based so the removal of combat tricks makes it so players have to rely on having better creatures.

[mrs_bun]

First off, the only thing that bothers me really is the combat stuff. Mana burn going bye bye, oh well. Regrettable, as the man said. Pools emptying more, eh. Battlefield, agree with shady on flavor. Planeswalkers: kinda silly, but no sillier than most plot holes in good shows a few seasons in. None of that ruins it.

Simplifications to combat: I agree that a lot of the old rules were counter intuitive, but I think the changes are stupid because:

1) ive rarely met a player, even among the scrubby mws weirdos who sign up to play my "T1 vintage 2/3 w sb please :)" games with their deck that looks like it was from a kamigawa block booster draft. The type of person who is interested in playing magic at all, competitively or not, will grasp these rules easily once explained.

2) a counterintuitive rule, once learned, is incredibly difficult to unlearn. dealing damage and then bouncing/saccing a little guy is a fun and important dynamic. removing it cheapens the game.

3) stop catering to the lowest common denominator!!! omg. what if some little leaguer just learning to play baseball was like "omg the infield fly rule? what?" "uh oh, a person who has never heard of this rule didnt intuitively get it, lets remove it!" NO! a rich game caters to its top players. en passant in chess is not intuitive, neither is castling. but these things enrich the game. new players playing each other dont use them, so there is no harm. advanced players all know the tricks, so there is no harm, and they play a richer game. does a new player playing a game where they get whooped by a rule they didnt know existed quit the game? no! they learn the rule! they get ticked off in the moment, prolly, but most if not all learn it. they dont call it cheap or counterintuitive. they see that by being counterintuitive, it will be easy for them to use as a surprise to other players now.

4) the new blocking and damage assignment rules made me want to scream. what is this, some stupid always on banding? but i actually DID scream when i read death touch. you cant assign damage however you want now. also, this rule does not apply to death touch. what??? why? i cant split my twoheaded dragons damage, but you can split you little 2/2 elf tokens damage? why? ack. you cant say youre changing a rule because it was too complicated, but then add even MORE rules, and THEN make an immediate exception to it that makes no sense either flavor nor rules-wise.

[Fonzy]

2 things made me lol from the article, too:

The Reality: Many players aren't aware of the existence of mana burn as a game concept.

lolwat?

I've never encountered a player in 15 years of Magic who hasn't known about mana burn. And if this is the case, then what's to indicate that any new players will bother to learn the new rules if they couldn't be bothered to learn the old ones? I mean honestly, what the fuck kind of bullshit is "people didn't play the game right, so we changed the rules to meet their needs"?

I realize that some of these decisions will cause concern for our loyal and enfranchised players. History alone indicates that will be the case; there was a great deal of negativity from some quarters in response to the Sixth Edition changes ten years ago. Players decried that the end was nigh and the game would never recover. But most of us calmed down and learned the changes, and now they're second nature to us. I anticipate this batch of changes to go no differently. I am prepared to defend all of these decisions and can say with a straight face, a clear conscience, and months of firsthand experience that Magic will be improved as a result of them.

Translation: "You're all dumb so screw you, this is happening whether you like it or not, so STFU and GBTW because we're not going to listen to you anyhow. We're right and you're wrong and that's the end of it."

[Shadow]

haha, who would've seen that coming? I mean, Wizards not caring about what the players think?

[Fonzy]

Anybody who knows the first thing about business, though, knows that it's easier, less expensive, and less time-consuming to keep existing customers happy than it is to win new customers. Their business decisions confound me.

Also, this is nothing like 6th edition changes. The stack actually makes sense and cleared up a lot of confusion. These changes don't have the same purpose or result.

[mrs_bun]

Done with it. Not in a magic is dieing way, either. All they wanna do is pander to safe, average stupidity. They will continue to make a safe, average profit, all the while wondering why their really crappy dnd online can't compete with wow, wondering why their really crappy everything can't compete with anyone's anything. They want to be the game everyone plays, whatever game they're making, which will average out into being a sorta okay thing that will do averagely, because there are better alternatives. I jsut don;t want to play an average game. I loled @ exiling magic tag.

[Shadow]

kotor mmo comes out soon. :teach:

[mrs_bun]

Anybody who knows the first thing about business, though, knows that it's easier, less expensive, and less time-consuming to keep existing customers happy than it is to win new customers. Their business decisions confound me.

Also, this is nothing like 6th edition changes. The stack actually makes sense and cleared up a lot of confusion. These changes don't have the same purpose or result.

Yes, anyone who knows anything knows that. But based on what I've seen from magic online, gleemax, and the people I talk to over there, most of the decisions on all of their failures are in the hands of a few people. Also, Mark Gottlieb really does look like a toad. I don;t know why anyone would like him. He's often wrong about what cards and combos are good, hopefully out of date when he's right, and imagines himself to be an intellectual. A truly milquetoasty man. The people in charge want to be in charge because its neat. Come on, they put Mike in charge of gleemax because he was a GUILD LEADER IN WOW. They want dnd to be wow it isn't funny, and they're applying that insecurity to everything, including their crown jewel, magic. A unique, interesting thing that no one else does quite as well. So lets be as average as possible. If you;re totally average, you can't make mistakes!

[Fonzy]

You know what, too? Fuck all those morons with the "Cult of Mago" crap in their sigs too. I hope they all die of penile cancer.

[mrs_bun]

kotor mmo comes out soon. :teach:

Okay, I'll try it. :P

[Shadow]

I think the idea behind their moves is that they are going to keep their hardcore fans no matter what. So even if they shit all over them they'll still pump out money for their cards. Then new players that will pump out money.

edit: the kotor mmo trailer from E3 looks great.

[Fonzy]

I would buy a box of cards right now if they fired Gottlieb and revoked all his changes.

[mrs_bun]

I think the idea behind their moves is that they are going to keep their hardcore fans no matter what. So even if they shit all over them they'll still pump out money for their cards. Then new players that will pump out money.

edit: the kotor mmo trailer from E3 looks great.

No, the real idea isn;t malicious. Its safe, and average, and semiflaccid. All of the rule changes are the nice boy your mom likes but you're pretty sure he's gay, and even if not he might as well be for all the asking girls out he does. Even the huge sweeping changes are safe and small, and though they've caused waves, they are meant not to. They are meant to be unnoticed, but they know that they won't be, so the next best thing is to just say "scrubs inspired us " in kinder words, of course, so the scrubs will love it (even tho the rule changes do not resemble any house rules IVE ever heard of, or any way someone ever misunderstood a rule.) They hoped to make the game nicer by cutting off its balls, which works, but they forgot that a guy with no balls is not a lot of fun to play with.

I would buy a box of cards right now if they fired Gottlieb and revoked all his changes.

But he's the firer. Whoa spellcheck, you sure firer is a word? Um, okay. Even tho spellcheck still isn't. :V

Back on topic, yeah. What a douche nozzle. And I've literally never called anyone that.

[Dullahan]

Im boycotting m10. And Zendaikar.

edit: and not paying for any more tournaments where wizards gets a cut.

[mrs_bun]

I'm not boycotting anything. I'm moving back to africa.

[Dullahan]

I'm not boycotting anything. I'm moving back to africa.

:V

[mrs_bun]

Metaphircally speaking. :P

[mrs_bun]

I've had some typos, but that was a doozy. o_O

[Fonzy]

Back?

[mrs_bun]

Like, boycotting the bus routes in alabama? It was a terrible analogy, my fave kind.

[mrs_bun]

Glad to be of service, sir.

Something can still be precious and sad without being a matter of life and death, or important in the long run.

[Fonzy]

It's kind of amusing watching you guys rage, honestly.

Thanks for the insight, Dr. Cool.

[Fonzy]

I mean seriously, what is the difference between this and anyone who whined about the card face (something I still dislike, if only in the sense that I prefer the older card face), or any other change that "is killing Magic"?

Uh...because the card face is cosmetic, but these are changes to the way the game is actually played?

[mrs_bun]

No, because we aren't chicken little saying the sky is falling, we're just irritated that the game is ruined for no reason, against reason, even.

Also, I still talk to a lot of ppl from wotc from the wizo days, so its frustrating how in charge a few stupid ppl are.

EDIT: @ shady obv.

No one really cares about the battlefield. Anyone who does is either going to put up with it, or doesn't really play anymore anyway and jsut wants to lol @ it and hold it up as evidence that they were right to stop playing earlier for whatever reason.

I'm mainly mad at the fact that a fun game is now boring, it was made boring because idiots think they are smart and insightful, and someone gave them so much power they didnt even think to check it with a "hey, players, would you really hate this if we did it? because it changes everything."

Or maybe they're such bad players they didnt realize how important the rules were.

[Shadow]

It's always a few who ruin it for the many.

Like Hitler!

[mrs_bun]

The lord is my shepherd, for every few months he remindeth me that I can't put shady on ignore.

[Fonzy]

I'm relatively certain you were talking about the battlefield changes earlier in the thread, and more to the point, so what? You haven't played under the new rules, more simplistic does not necessarily mean worse, and even if you don't like them I'm sure plenty of others will so you're just flailing your arms angrily. I mean I guess not that dramatically but I fail to see a difference between what you're doing and people whining about every other change in Magic.

...

You've actually read the thread, right?

[Shadow]

I'll be honest, I skimmed.

Thanks for arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Shadow]

How's that been working out for you?

[Fonzy]

Fonzy I could see as just venting his rage about what he thinks is a stupid change and that makes sense, but I doubt he's going as far as to claim the game is ruined.

Well then I think you get my point with the first part of your post. You're right, I won't say the game is ruined - I'm sure plenty of loyal fans will still play this game for years after the shark has been jumped, but as they peel back more and more aspects of the game I know, I can't help feeling like this isn't the Magic I know anymore. My desire to play has pretty much completely eroded. Ruined isn't the right word, maybe on a personal level, but whatever.

[mrs_bun]

The game isn't dying, its just been made less challenging but just as complex, or even moreso, and needlessly. Ugh, nvm. God forbid anyone care about anything, Shady.

[Shadow]

Destroy his weed.

[mrs_bun]

I said it jsut to make a point, shady cares about much deep things than drugs, even deeper than the consciousness expansion of those altered states. I just don;t get how ppl can;t see how the underlying causes are the frustrating part. Like, iono, its sad. So no one died, woo. It was a bad thing that happened for no reason. That's sad. Also, if u wanna get technical, someone DID die.

[notallama]

the problem isn't that the new rules are stupid, it's that they completely changed the game.
they basicaly just killed magic and replaced it with a similar game.
i actually like the idea of the blocking order thing. walls just got a lot better, basically. doesn't mean it was a good idea to change it, though.

i sold my cards about a month ago though, so it doesn't bother me. :V

[Jenius]

Shady: They basically removed options and completely changed how combat works.

Example situations that got nerfed by lack of damage on stack:
1. Sac abilities obv obv obv. In my experience, getting the most milage out of creatures as possible by being able to sac them with damage on the stack (to their own effect or to to something else like spawning pool) was a mechanic that added a huge amount of depth and strategy to the game. People vying for card advantage through sac abilities (elder trading and getting a land, mog going 2 for 1, grave shell scarab nabbing a card on death) was pretty much a staple in combat whenever I played. It's possible wizards will try to circumvent this by printing more cards that have triggers on death or leaving play, but it's not an ideal solution.
2. A lot of abilities that were designed to save or protect creatures about to die just lost their in combat use (stuff like bounce or ghostway, slide, etc), while I don't think this came up a huge amount in constructed, I played a lot of limited when I played, and this is a FUCKING MASSIVE change.
3. Various corner cases.

Stuff the the new blocking system (and being unable to divy up damage) does.
1. I swing with a 4/4, my opponent blocks with two 3/3's. I have a clasm in hand. I have no way to kill both of them. I could potentially play it precombat, but then they have the option of not blocking.
2. I swing with a 4/6, they block with lord of atlantis and two originally 1/1 (now 2/2) tokens, I can't put 2 on atlantis and 1 on each of the tokens to kill them all.
3. I swing with a 4/4 that gets blocked with four 1/1's, my opponent is holding giant growth (this situation might have been generated via lure or the person not getting giant growth until after they declared blockers or some similar such thing), now I'm stuck unable to assign damage to the other 3 tokens because they just turned my "first" target into a 4/4. Previously, 3 tokens would die, now one does.
4. More cases that are probably equally stupid.

This is not a minor change shady, the game is totally different now. You might think these particular examples are narrow but I've run into something similar to all of them at least once, the clasm situation has actually come up quite a bit for me and I've occasionally assigned odd damage against lords and tokens. Sac abilities are obviously not situational (it's been a clearly designed around mechanic), and several cards have bounce that can easily be attributed to damage on stack tricks.

It also completely ruins odd creates like windreaver who lost the functionality he was designed around.

[Mixed Berry Hotcakes.]

-Hey, Mr Toad, players are talking about not buying the new XBOX game because they think it dumbs things down.
-Not to worry Mr Badger, we'll just retcon everything else.

Also much lol at the forums being down.

[quadibloc]

Now that we see the full dimensions of the changes, they are worrisome.

Some of the name changes were silly. Getting rid of mana burn was pointless, and seems to make things worse, not better.

When it comes to regarding cards in "exile" as still in the game, the change they propose makes it obvious what the change should have been: distinguish cards that are removed from the game temporarily (such as with Memory Jar, or by being Championed) and those that are removed from the game with no explicit provision for return. Those in the latter category should still be subject to being returned to the game with Wishes.

Changing the game to get rid of combos which seem gimmicky or rules-lawyerish has been done before, witness the history of Lion's Eye Diamond.

But adding the step of lining up blockers for an order of damage is a change bigger than any one of the individual changes that made up the Sixth Edition rules change. It's not needed. All they had to do was add a rule like this:

If a player removes an attacking or blocking creature that was under his control when assigned to attack or block from play during the combat damage step, this interferes with the damage it would deal; if a player causes a blocking creature of this kind to become tapped during the combat damage step, this interferes with the damage it would deal; if a player removes a blocking creature of this kind from play during the combat damage step, it causes it not to block.

One non-intuitive thing in the Sixth Edition rules they should have changed is that currently blocking creatures can be tapped or removed from play during the assign blockers step and still block and deal damage. However, that is probably there to compensate for the fact that there is no opportunity to re-assign blockers to replace those that are interfered with.

A more explicit rule to deal with this would be to delay the results of an attack (EDIT: that is, an attack of another kind, like direct damage) targeting a blocking (EDIT: or attacking) creature until the end of the combat damage step.

[Fonzy]

2. A lot of abilities that were designed to save or protect creatures about to die just lost their in combat use (stuff like bounce or ghostway, slide, etc), while I don't think this came up a huge amount in constructed, I played a lot of limited when I played, and this is a FUCKING MASSIVE change.

Fuck, this just made me realize my Slide deck is now far less effective.

I am definitely fucking quitting now.

[Van]

Combat change was the last straw.

I can handle exile, battlefield, eliminating mana burn, changes in mana pools emptying, and whatever other sorts of things. But it really is a different game now with these combat changes. I'm not saying Magic is totally ruined, or that the game will now die out completely with these changes. But I don't like it one bit. And I'm one of those players who got screwed over by the old combat rules rather than benefited from it. I still think it was important to the game, and me making bad plays because i forgot about those rules was my own damn problem, not the game's.

[Jenius]

Shady I'm curious if you simply didn't think about the total ramifications of these changes or if they simply don't have much of an impact on the formats you play (does vintage even have combat damage?).

I mainly ask this because you seemed to be making fun of us for overreacting until my post :V.

[Fonzy]

The issue was resolved; Fonzy realized he was just venting and going a little rage crazy, and bun admitted she was overreacting.

I'm still quitting. I have no desire to play under the new rules.

[notallama]

as far as huge rule changes go, the combat thing is about a step below "the stack is now a queue!"

[mrs_bun]

bun admitted she was overreacting.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK

[Fonzy]

as far as huge rule changes go, the combat thing is about a step below "the stack is now a queue!"

It's completely regressive.

And the retards comparing this to the 6E changes can go jump off a fucking bridge.

6E changes brought structure and an understandable system of play to practically every aspect of the game, which, prior to 6E, was more or less a gigantic mess.

What the new combat change is essentially doing is saying, "Ok, 6E changes were good, except where combat damage is concerned. So yeah, what we said 10 years ago, except in terms of combat; instead follow these new rules we just made up while smoking a fat bag of crack in Mark Gottleib's basement. Because that's obviously the most 'intuitive' thing to do - apply a set of rules to every aspect of the game (including other situations where damage is dealt), except for this specific and frequent situation. That's where we're going to cook up a fuckload of arbitrary new conventions to plug all the holes we created by trying to fix what wasn't fucking broken in the first place."

[mrs_bun]

The rules were so great because they applied everywhere equally. The rules were simple, even when they created complex interactions. Now they are retardedly complex, counterintuitive to other rules that still apply to noncombat situations, and create boring, stupid, counterintuitive situations.

[Kant]

Been a while, but how is having your creatures line up like ninjas in a badly designed beat-em-up game more intuitive?

[Van]

holy shit i just read about this

fuck

fuck fuck

well the only format i would play anyway is limited, which sucks because combat is what limited is all about. this doesn't make sakura tribe elder that much worse, right? I can still block and sack after i assign it as a blocker but before damage is assigned, right? or no?

I...think? But STE wouldn't trade with an x/1 and get a land, but it could stop a block and get a land.

[Dullahan]

I dont play magic for the flavor.



Vorthos can die in a fire. Twice.